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Bring me my machine gun

Bring me my machine gun

Old Oct 10th 2008, 8:37 am
  #91  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Stanley10
First world standards ? Yet justice a la Pabs is acceptable?
Stanley, all you are succeeding in doing is making yourself look foolish and ignorant.
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Old Oct 10th 2008, 8:40 am
  #92  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Daxk
Then why does Zuma not go to Court, it would be so much better to have his name cleared?
I agree, he himself asked for his day in court, if memory serves me correctly. However it is not his fault if the state has not gots its act together after all these years.
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Old Oct 10th 2008, 8:42 am
  #93  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Pablo
Stanley, all you are succeeding in doing is making yourself look foolish and ignorant.
Does that mean that you will not answer my question?
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Old Oct 10th 2008, 8:54 am
  #94  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Stanley10
Does that mean that you will not answer my question?
Your question is absurd. It presupposes I have some privileged access to the judge's mind. Like so much that you post here, it is designed merely to deceive.

However, it is safe to assume that the judge did not have access to knowledge of Zuma's, and the victim's, subsequent history.

You confuse legalism with justice. You confuse real life with a court room. You confuse opinion with legal judgements. You fail to understand that any court is limited, and that the limitation of its judgements is whether guilt (not innocence) has been proven within the confines of the court.

It is you who keeps trying to reduce this to some sort of idiotic rehash of Zuma's court case. It just won't wash.
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Old Oct 10th 2008, 10:45 am
  #95  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Pablo
However, it is safe to assume that the judge did not have access to knowledge of Zuma's, and the victim's, subsequent history.
What subsequent history?
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Old Oct 10th 2008, 11:17 am
  #96  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Stanley10
What subsequent history?
For a start, the judge could not have known that this supposedly strong-minded and manipulative woman would end up a psychological wreck living in exile in Holland. If he had known that, he would perhaps have been less quick to brand her in the way he did.

Second, he could not have been aware of the subsequent legal gymnastics Zuma resorted to in order to avoid the day in court he claims he so eagerly desires. Even if such knowledge had been available to him, he could not have admitted it into consideration since courts of law have to exclude much evidence which people factor into their real-life judgements about people.

Third, the alternative explanation for this victim's bringing her rape charge against Zuma, namely that she was the patsy for some grand conspiracy against Zuma orchestrated by Mbeki, fails to convince -- and I think subsequent events corroborate that view.

None of this could have been known to the judge. Even if it had been known, it could not have been admitted.

That is why, as I keep telling you, courts of law require guilt to be proven, not innocence. Do you really not grasp that?

The woman, the victim, had nothing to gain, irrespective of whether Zuma was found guilty in court. Either way, she loses. So do we accept that she was a hapless pawn in some grand power game played by dark and unidentified forces opposed to Zuma (e.g., Mbeki)? Or perhaps merely insane? My view is no. Yours may differ. Fine.

Was the victim a sly, strong, manipulative woman, as the judge suggested? My judgement is that she was not.

So I maintain what I have always said. That in my opinion she was raped by a violent ignorant philanderer drunk on power and the lust for power, who thought he could do what he pleased, when he pleased, who thought he could have his way with everything, including with this vulnerable woman whom he was supposed to be protecting; a man, in short, who thought he was invincible.
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Old Oct 10th 2008, 4:18 pm
  #97  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Stanley10
From the complainant's testimony
"During the intercourse the complainant did not tell the accused to stop. The reason being that she could not talk, she could not move and she could not do anything"
Sounds like a willing and wanting participant in this event. He's not happy with the multiple spouses he has to screw that he continues to have sex with someone that could not talk, move or do anything?? Could she have been scared and if so wonder why? Gee, even I get to understand that this does not sound like a consensual roll in the hay.
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Old Oct 10th 2008, 4:59 pm
  #98  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

wonder if she was tested for Rohepnol?
going to have to find some time this weekend to go through the transcripts of Jacobs testimony.
I dont know how credible a witness I would have been arriving at court everyday and having to go through throngs of chanting,toy-toying hooligans all shouting to "burn the Bitch".
In addition,in the few Rape Court cases I have witnessed, the Defence usually puts the plaintiff on trial and Kemp Kemp is a brutal interrogator.
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Old Oct 13th 2008, 3:26 am
  #99  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Pablo
For a start, the judge could not have known that this supposedly strong-minded and manipulative woman would end up a psychological wreck living in exile in Holland. If he had known that, he would perhaps have been less quick to brand her in the way he did.
You use the word manipulative, he didn't. He was aware that she had been treated in a mental hospital, and was still receiving phsycological treatment at the time of the trial. Where she landed up after the trial has no bearing on whether or not she had been raped. Not sure how he branded her, I don't think he did.

Originally Posted by Pablo
Second, he could not have been aware of the subsequent legal gymnastics Zuma resorted to in order to avoid the day in court he claims he so eagerly desires. Even if such knowledge had been available to him, he could not have admitted it into consideration since courts of law have to exclude much evidence which people factor into their real-life judgements about people.
Again has no bearing on his guilt or innocence, just demonstrates he is using all legal avenues at his disposal.

Originally Posted by Pablo
Third, the alternative explanation for this victim's bringing her rape charge against Zuma, namely that she was the patsy for some grand conspiracy against Zuma orchestrated by Mbeki, fails to convince -- and I think subsequent events corroborate that view.
It is not the alternative, but an alternative. Others could include the possibility that she has phsycological issues which may lead her to make false rape charges (which she has a history of doing), for personal gain (she was writing a book) or yes she may be Mbeki's patsy. (not sure why this fails to convince when "subsequent events corroborate that view").


Originally Posted by Pablo
Was the victim a sly, strong, manipulative woman, as the judge suggested? My judgement is that she was not.
Your judgement is based on what? Have you met her, seen her, or heard her testimony, as the judge has, or are you relying on what you see and hear in the press (which is generally anti JZ)?

Originally Posted by Pablo
So I maintain what I have always said. That in my opinion she was raped by a violent ignorant philanderer drunk on power and the lust for power, who thought he could do what he pleased, when he pleased, who thought he could have his way with everything, including with this vulnerable woman whom he was supposed to be protecting; a man, in short, who thought he was invincible.
Which is what it boils down to, you don't like JZ, therefore he did it, justice a la Pabs.

Last edited by Stanley10; Oct 13th 2008 at 3:32 am.
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Old Oct 13th 2008, 3:30 am
  #100  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Tegwyn
Sounds like a willing and wanting participant in this event. He's not happy with the multiple spouses he has to screw that he continues to have sex with someone that could not talk, move or do anything?? Could she have been scared and if so wonder why? Gee, even I get to understand that this does not sound like a consensual roll in the hay.
Firstly, it was her testimony, and secondly it demonstrates that she did not say "no".
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Old Oct 13th 2008, 8:10 am
  #101  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Stanley10
Which is what it boils down to, you don't like JZ, therefore he did it, justice a la Pabs.
No, Stanley. What is boils down to is that there is a reasonable possibility that he did it, which only he and she know for sure; and that in these circumstances, coupled with the separate corruption charges, he should not put himself forward as head of state.
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Old Oct 14th 2008, 2:08 am
  #102  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Pablo
No, Stanley. What is boils down to is that there is a reasonable possibility that he did it, which only he and she know for sure; and that in these circumstances, coupled with the separate corruption charges, he should not put himself forward as head of state.
No Pabs, there is always a possibility (anything is possible), however it is not reasonable.
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Old Oct 14th 2008, 4:18 am
  #103  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Stanley10
Firstly, it was her testimony, and secondly it demonstrates that she did not say "no".
Goes to show how in the first world one would understand her response to implicitly indicate whether the event was welcomed or not. Perhaps Mr Zuma, and his supporters could use a lesson in basic human behaviour to understand that "no" comes in very many interpretations. She may not have had the choice of saying "no" to a man of his stature even if she did not want the event to occur. I suppose we should consider Zuma's lack of education and values towards women when assessing his behaviour.
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Old Oct 14th 2008, 5:55 am
  #104  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Tegwyn
Goes to show how in the first world one would understand her response to implicitly indicate whether the event was welcomed or not. Perhaps Mr Zuma, and his supporters could use a lesson in basic human behaviour to understand that "no" comes in very many interpretations. She may not have had the choice of saying "no" to a man of his stature even if she did not want the event to occur. I suppose we should consider Zuma's lack of education and values towards women when assessing his behaviour.
As I have already pointed out, the judge found it was consensual, surely in the "first world, civilisation, whatever" this should be taken into consideration?
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Old Oct 14th 2008, 7:43 am
  #105  
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Default Re: Bring me my machine gun

Originally Posted by Stanley10
No Pabs, there is always a possibility (anything is possible), however it is not reasonable.
No, anything is not possible. Your whole approach puts me in mind of the dogged pedestrian legalism of an inferior police inspector or a second-rate lawyer. You are like one of those people who deny that Hitler had anything to do with the Holocaust on the grounds that no signed document has been found.
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